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Schlock
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Post by Schlock » Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:19 pm

My Empire will fight the High Elves any day (I'm available). I'm confident in my ability to hold my own against the brokenness. And if I don't, it sounds like I'll be playing against a fun army to look at.

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Post by tyson » Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:54 pm

morbidangel said:
yes, high elves get -1 core and get +1 to special and rare choices. So at 2000 points, they only have to have 2 core units, and can take 5 special choices and 3 rares. So that means high elves only have to field two small units of archers, and then you will see knights, dragon princes, sword masters, white lions and chariots, and lots of bolt throwers. On top of that they have really good magic users, and have dragon mages. And then throw in ASF.

Warhammer fantasy isn't broken, just highelves. They are after all the fantasy version of the broken eldar.
You are seriously underestimating the disadvantage of having 3 strength and 3 toughness combined with high point cost units. A High Elf army will almost always have less models and units than his opponent (I always have). Two basic core choices for the High Elfs will cost you around 300 pts. and both the choices are highly ineffective at killing the enemy. Those changes to the rules made High Elfs a competitive army now given their racial defecits so quityerbitchin'. You're just mad Elfs aren't an easy win anymore. Now being able to have a dragon at less than 2000 pts., that's broken :wink:
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Morbidangel
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Post by Morbidangel » Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:27 pm

no tyson, i am not bitchin as you so put it. What i see is just simply an error of critical thinking from a developers point of view. Instead of giving an entire army always strike first, they simply could have just given the army, the ability to strike at initiative order, even if charged, using great weapons. This would basically give the army the same ability they have with ASF with none of the headaches associated with dealing with other units that have asf and higher initiative. Also its another brain fart on the developers where they lay down basic rules in the rule book that are now being overwritten by one army. That rule is with your greatweapons, where greatweapones have the rule that states they always strike last. Well now your great weapons strike first, and when paired against another unit with ASF as well, they strike in initiative order, never having to take into effect the rules of their greatweapons into account. So now you have a rule that is laid down in the rulebook that doesn't apply to the armyever. Again that is broken, but its not the players fault, its the developers because they can't agree on rules they have already set in stone.

The biggest problem with developers nowadays is they try to make stuff that seems fluffy, but it isn't fluffy. Sure elves are known for there quickness, but how is it that the entire high elf race, the elf race that spawned the wood elves and the dark elves, end up being quicker than there cousins. All elves have T3, and all elves are basically str 3. You also can't compare str3 troops to be crap. Most armies have str 3 troops. Orcs are str 3, but t4, but also init 2. Elves are str 3, t3, ini 5, and often have better weapon skills than humans, orcs and even undead. Chaos is the only army that seems to have similar ws to elves, and they are stronger and tougher, but slower or on the same speed. Your troops have the same killing power than other armies. Your spearmen, attack in 3 ranks, and now asf. Your archers have extremely long range bows, so they do some killing to soften units. And if your archers get charged, guess what they get to swing first before the unit that charges them, probably killing 1 or 2 in the process. So yeah your troops might be a tad bit expensive, elves always have been, but they are just as good as other troops.

As for your specials, they movied your cheap calvary to special which was to help offset things, but i guarantee you that most Cheesy players wont field those knights. They instead will field swordmasters, white lions, phoenix guard, chariots, or dragon princes. And they get to field more of those choices than other armies. I can see that as maybe being a high elf special rule, it does seem a bit flufy, but the biggest problem again was developers. Were they really thinking of ways to make the army fluffy, or just ways of helping it to simply win.

Anyways, back to topic. I can't be mad at them being harder wins. I have never won against a high elf army in any addition that i have played against them in. The army was always a decent army and the players often had to think and there magic and shooting has always been there strong points. SO, High Elves have always been a nasty army from there conception, even before the new rules.
I for one, will look forward to playing them and hopefully owning them sometime in the future if i can get a fantasy army of my own. I am now starting to look into units aquirement myself, and probably gonna go with dark elves. I don't buy my armies based on effectiveness, i buy my armies based on what i can enjoy painting and hopefully enjoy playing. And lets face it..those new cold ones are just too awesome looking to pass up.
Lunar Drakes(marines): 2/4/0
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Tau, Elsy'eir sept: 0/0/0
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Yuri
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Post by Yuri » Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:12 pm

Morbidangel wrote:Sure elves are known for there quickness, but how is it that the entire high elf race, the elf race that spawned the wood elves and the dark elves, end up being quicker than there cousins.
Because they got their brand new codex first.
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SoldierOfFortune
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Post by SoldierOfFortune » Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:03 pm

Wow, Morbid, tell us how you really feel!

Having the entire army ASF is challenging, but I still agree with Tyson. T3 all across the board is really rough. The main reason I've dropped my dark elves for awhile has been primarily due to that I was tired of having elves drop in a slight breeze! The Dwarfs have been an excellent diversion.

pepo 1050, I'll be with Habitat for Humanity on Sunday, but I'm free on Saturday. I'm planning to play 40K, but I'd be glad to either a) bring a small Dark elf force or b) maybe play the Skaven that Jon's left collecting dust at CCCG.

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Morbidangel
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Post by Morbidangel » Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:06 pm

well yuri, they aren't making asf an elf thing, just a high elf thing. I got to see the dark elf army book yesterday, the only universal thing elves still got going for them is the T3 no matter what, init 5 and higher and better than average ws on there basic troops. Dark elves get just eternal hatred, they hate everyone, but hate highelves more. So all they get to do is reroll to hits on first round of combat, but against high elves its every round of combat.

Dark elves still have to take the same core as everyone else.
Wood elves,pretty much the same except there biggest trick is all the shooting and all the skirmishers.
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Post by SoldierOfFortune » Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:41 pm

Hatred isn't 'just' anything! I'll reserve judgement until I play some matches.

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Yuri
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Post by Yuri » Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:45 pm

Well, High Elves with Always Strike First, Dark Elves with Eternal Hatred. I wonder what Wood Elves are going to get when they get a new codex (which will not be any time soon since they got one right before 7th came out and it sucks compared to everything else that has come out since). Maybe the ability to ignore armor saves with their bows, but only if you are an inch away. Or maybe the unbelievable ability to crash like waves upon rocks in close combat against...anything. Wait, they already have that one.
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tyson
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Post by tyson » Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:28 pm

Yuri said:
Or maybe the unbelievable ability to crash like waves upon rocks in close combat against...anything.
LOL :P

Aside from the pricyness of Wood Elf units, your codex doesn't seem too bad. Moving and shooting without penalty is a pretty awesome ability but it certainly needs an update.

Morbid, you say that there's a balance with str, tough, and int between the races offset by weapon skill. 3 toughness is not so easily offset though. A unit of light cavalry charges a unit of High Elf spearmen. Without ASF, the cavalry unit goes first. Even if their WS is lower, which it usually isn't, they are going to hit 50% of the time. Then with spears, standard on most light cav, they will wound 66% of time. The High Elfs would get a 6+ armor save which they prob won't make. Unless that player was stupid enough to charge a front rank with light cav that might leave one or two men to fight back. That's not even counting horses. ASF allows the High Elf to survive an extra round of combat because even with high WS, str 3 allows, at best, a 50% wound rate with no armor piercing ability. Goblin spearmen and Wood Elf glade gaurd are the only core units that can't own High Elf spearmen in close combat without ASF. The new rules make the HIgh Elf army more competitive in spots where they couldn't compete before and they allow the High Elf player to use a larger variety of units; no more entire cavalry armies or static arrow lines. So, more people are once again playing High Elf armies and therefore buying them. Not only that, but they are encouraged by the rules to buy a variety of different types of units increasing the creativity and variety of games. Therefore, design did a wonderful and lucrative job.
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Post by Morbidangel » Fri Jul 18, 2008 6:07 pm

as i quoted, the average trooper. You compared against calvary. Yes calvary has always been the bane of your standard trooper. It was proven thruout history. If you compare your basic spearment to other basic troop units. High elves have ws of what..4, S & T of 3, init 5, and they fight in 3 ranks and have ASF. All other spearmen only fight in 2 ranks. So yours are to start with more skilled in that department. Standard humans have the same str and toughness, but have usually init 4, and only ws of 3. Against orc spearmen, who have the same ws, a higher toughness, and an init2, but still only fight in two ranks.
Heck even against dark elves, dark elves still only fight in two ranks, you get asf, dark elves get hatred(granted its every round against highelves).

Point being, if you take away asf, and give them a rule that states they fight every combat in init order despite being charged or not or what weapons they have, with impact hits and asf only going first, it woudl still be the same basic rule, yet wouldn't seem as broken.
For all other armies, if they want to get ASF, they have to pay a hefty price, thru a magic item, and usually it only effects characters, and not units, and if units only one unit. Yet..highelves get it on everyone. Sure it makes people play the army, but lets face it high elf armies never really sucked to begin with.
All armies have a weakness. All core units are not prize winning specimens. Core are designed to be that..core. They shoudl form the bulk of your army. IN real world most armies that fought, fought with tons of infantry. They had specialist troops that were good at specific things but they didn't make the bulk of the army. Calvary are fast, but they weren't used in bulk but when they were used they broke infantry. Archers and artillery had the same effect on moral, scare the enemy, or take them down at range. Some armies had units that were just elite infantry. They often were better trained, better equipped, used psychological tricks to scare there opponents or just were plain and simple, rare units. The same shoudl be said for every army, and its sad that now, everyone looks for that special rule, that game breaking ability to justify an army.

Me..i am going with dark elves for one simple reason. Not because they are the newest army, not because of there rules(tho that does have a good factoring in it), but because i like the look and fluff of the army. Your stating that high elves weren't playable before. I think your wrong. High elves were very playable before. In fact..it was the one army i always hated going against. Now they still are the army i dread fighting. I fear some armies for different reasons. I hate empire because of the cheap troops but massive firepower. I don't like dealing with dwarves because its like sending wave after wave against a wall of stone. Night Goblins i fear the fanatics. Orcs i used to fear the giants that i always saw. Undead the vamps and always regenerating undead. With high elves, its not a matter of fearing the army, its now just simply a matter, of did i take a big enough unit to get thru the cheese. Can i survive combat long enough to get in hits. With other armies, i know if i charge them i can get in a few hits. With elves....i can't even get any hits in before they swing. I have to now take a shooty army against them just to weaken the army down, so when and if i charge them..i can actually get some dmg thru before i lose my front rank.

So you see... The developers didn't give them a fluffy army wife rule that fit, they gave them a rule that simply breaks the general rule of the game. As you said...if they got charged by calvary they didn't have a chance. WAIT..most armies core units get charged by calvary don't have a chance. So why should the high elves be different from everyone. Thats all i am imply.

Also..i am done arguing this topic. its dead, this is what i feal. The developers gave the army alot of good things, but i think they simply game them way to much with no real disadvantage. Look at wood elves..you even commented, sure they get to move and shoot with no disadvantage to that, but they are an army of skirmishers with no real Big Block, take the brunt of hits units either. They are simply great as harrassers and ambushers. Theres and advantage with an equalizer disadvantage thrown in. Whats the high elves disadvantage again, besides being T3, like both the other elf armies or just being more costly, which they aren't when you compare them directly with other armies as a whole.
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Total Points Painted: about 1500 of 6500

Tau, Elsy'eir sept: 0/0/0
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Yuri
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Post by Yuri » Fri Jul 18, 2008 7:21 pm

tyson wrote:Aside from the pricyness of Wood Elf units, your codex doesn't seem too bad. Moving and shooting without penalty is a pretty awesome ability but it certainly needs an update.
I'm not gonna lie, no penalty for moving and shooting is nice, as is being able to move through woods with no penalty, but if anyone has played me, how often do I move my archers? Never.

I'd like to see something like being able to see an extra inch or two through forests. That would be something awesome for the wood elves, that doesn't apply to every situation, yet makes the enemy fear the woods, as they should.

And, I'm not sure how many points Swordmasters cost, (16 right?), but my Eternal Guard cost 12 points, and they aren't nearly as combat effective as Swordmasters. Yea, they can be Stubborn if led by a hero or lord (which rocks, don't get me wrong), but 2 attacks at S3 with a 5+ Armor Save and a single attack from the second row, provided they didn't charge just doesn't seem to match up well for me.
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tyson
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Post by tyson » Sat Jul 19, 2008 2:05 am

With ASF, Swordmasters are ridiculous, but that's not the case for the majority of High Elf units and the Swordmasters were already pretty Hoss. I can see just having the High Elf player always go in initiative order being better for the rule questions and confering, basically, the same effect. But Always Go In Initiative Order is a lot harder to sell than Always Strike First, don't you think?
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