Space Marine Rumours

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Yuri
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Post by Yuri » Tue Aug 26, 2008 3:02 pm

Wow, I'm a little surprised, but I really shouldn't be.
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Post by Abaddon » Tue Aug 26, 2008 3:37 pm

I am glad. Why should these other chapters get all of their cool stuff plus have all of the new cool rules for basic marines? You would get the best of both worlds.
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NegativeK
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Post by NegativeK » Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:06 pm

Don't worry. It sounds like Space Wolves will get their codex first half of next year at the latest, which means the other three Space Marine chapters will get brand new codex by, what, the end of 2010? GW has to stick to their No Space Marine Left Behind schedule. ;)

I agree with Abaddon, though.
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Post by Steve » Tue Aug 26, 2008 9:13 pm

Oh really,

Well lets break it down then shall we.

HQ:

Special characters - Sure BA get some cool ones, but the the space marines get twice as many and can mix and match between no less that 5 chapters and can mix and match them however they please so it will be completely legal to see the UM special character and the CF special character in the same list, even though it makes NO F'n sense whatsoever. 1 point SM

Captains ? WS:6. Has a bolter and a bolt pistol or ccw. Has an Iron Halo. Keeps the Iron Halo in Terminator armor. May take a Relic blade and Storm Shield. Relic Blade replaces bolt pistol/CCW. I infer from this that the Storm Shield replaces the bolter. May take Artificer Armour. May take Terminator armor, Jump Pack or a Bike. Terminator armor replaces existing wargear (except Iron Halo). Includes a power sword. May not take a relic blade with Terminator armor. If he takes a bike, Bikes may be taken as Troops. Basically he makes the BA captain his bitch. 1 point SM

Chaplain ? only has BS 4, even though it really is only about ? point we'll say. 1 point BA

Librarian - only has BS 4, has a much wider selection of powers, better powers, upgradeable to use two powers a round, psychic hood nurfed.. We'll call this a draw considering the hood nurf is a pretty big deal.

Master of the Forge ? BA don't even get one of the F'ers, even though blood angels are suppose to have some of the best tech priests of the space marines, thats why they get over charged engines. 1 point SM

Honor Guard ? haha considering the BA honor guard isn't even as good as the SM command squad downgrade of these guys, I'm being nice only saying 1 point SM

Command squad - Apothecary gives the unit Feel no pain, Any can replace pistol or sword with: Storm Bolter, Flamer, Plasma gun, Meltagun, Combi-whatever, power sword or fist, lightning claw, thunder hammer, They can have bikes, BA command squads can have jump packs. 1 point SM

ELITE:

Sternguard Veterans ? do I even need to say anything.. 1 point SM

Dreadnought/Venerable Dreadnought ? basically wraps up everything you get for the BA dreadnought/furioso, into 1 choice , we'll call this a draw

Ironclad Dreadnought ? AV 13 verses the DC dreads +D3 attacks, again we'll call it a draw.

Terminators ? not limited to 5, cyclone now better than BA one, can have two heavy weapons in a 10 man squad. 1 point SM

Techmarine - May take a bike. Allows one piece of Cover in his deployment zone become +1 to its cover save. 1 point SM

Legion of the Damned - BA get Death company. Draw

TROOPS:

Tactical Marines ? are not limited to 5 OR 10 man squads. 1 point SM

Scouts ? BA scouts are elites but are a little stronger. Draw

FAST ATTACK:

Assault squads ? BA get them as troop choices 1 point BA

Scout Bikes ? No BA equivalent, 1 point SM

Vanguard Veterans - ?any model may replace" pistol and/or chainsword with Storm shield, plasma pistol, power weapon, lightning claw, power fist, thunder hammer. Heroic Intervention allows them to assault the turn they Deep strike. It must be declared before the deep strike is attempted and they may not fire the turn they land. Basically even though BA are suppose to be the Assault specialist army this guys make our veteran assault squads that we have to take as elites their bitches any day. 1 point SM

HEAVY SUPPORT:

Thunderfire Cannon ? again BA has nothing to compare to this, 1 point SM

Devastators - Sergeant has a Signum, allows one Marine to fire at BS 5. 1 point SM

Land Raider Redeemer ? BA get the Baal predictor even though I don't think it is as good a deal we will still say, Draw


So that leaves us the following Scores:
Space Marines: 13
Blood Angels: 2

I'm just speaking for my army, not BT, SW or DA. But I would have to be a complete MORON to continue to field a vastly inferior BA space marine army when I can just as easily do a ?counts as? vanilla space marine army that slaps the vampires of 40k and makes them their bitch.

Oh well, like Everett said at the rate GW puts out Space marine books I might get an update next year.

And Abaddon we'll see how glad you are when you have to play these new cracked out marines :-)

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Post by Yuri » Tue Aug 26, 2008 10:08 pm

I was gonna stay out of this, but hear me out, I just have a couple things.

1) SM Captains get WS 6. Why can't my Azrael of the Dark Angels, have WS 6? Raise the points, I don't care, I just want it to be recognized that my Chapter Master is not inferior to a Vanilla Marine Chapter Master, especially since the Dark Angels were the first Chapter created.

2) 8 man Bike squads. Really? Why do they get 8 man bike squads and I am stuck with 6 man? I do realize that I can add an Attack Bike and a Land Speeder, but sometimes I don't have the points for that or I just don't want to take them, but would rather have more bikes in a squad.

3) Librarians. I will say that keeping the Psychic Hood as is will be a huge advantage. But why can't Ezekiel, Dark Angels Librarian get to use more than one power a turn. He will basically be inferior in power to a generic Librarian. Again, not really agreeing with that.

I know the argument that most people will give is "Just play the Vanilla Marines counting as Dark Angels" and I just don't agree with that. I don't have a better reason than to just say it feels wrong to me somehow. If that were the case, why even make a separate Codex for them? Why not just smash all the Space Marine Chapters into one book and throw all their special characters into the same book, that way you can do whatever army you want?
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Morbidangel
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Post by Morbidangel » Wed Aug 27, 2008 7:44 am

good arguments yuri. I can see your point. I think the biggest thing is GW really really needed to released updated codex's or release a FAQ/get you by update for dark angels, templars, blood angels, and wolves when they release this new codex. Something to get the other marine chapters by till they release them. Or they should have just waited, and released all 5 of those codex's at the same time. What does it hurt really to release seperate codex's but retain one marine book to release all 5 codex's at once.

If they know they are updating the vanilla marine dex, why not work on the blood angels, templars, dark angels and spacewolves at the same time, that way when you release them, you have one big marine release. The codex's can come out at the same time, and you just have a huge splash release of minis over 3 months. Heck it makes perfect buisiness sense and perfect hobby sense, which is why GW wont do it, cause they have no sense when it comes to the hobby needs and biz needs either. All they care about is there pockets these days.

SO here's what i suggest. Lets make house rules when the new codex comes out. House rules for blood angels and dark angels and templars. Just are own FAQ and give the other chapters characters a needed boost. Spacewolves are getting a new dex in a few months, no need to go around upgrading them. But we can compare and upgrade some units. Upgrade the characters mostly. It wouldn't be to imposing to make house rules. Sure if you go somewhere else you couldn't use the house rules, but if you play at the store..they can be kinda official.
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Post by Abaddon » Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:17 am

Steve: I am not saying the Space Marine Codex is inferior to the Blood Angel codex or vise versa. You are approaching this from a purely power gaming perspective instead of a "unique army" perspective. Plus you are conveniently leaving out the things Blood Angels have that vanilla SM do not. I am not an expert having never had any type of space marine army, but I know the blood angels have some stuff that won't be in the Space Marine codex, like overcharged engines maybe? What about the Furioso dreanought? And who said vanilla space marines can mix and match special characters from different chapters? The codex isn't out yet but I highly doubt they will allow that.

Morbidangel: I am really against having house rules benefiting marine players. Since half the people play marines anyway it shouldn't matter. Is their an overpowered army out there right now that is kicking everyone's butt so much that we need to give marines this advantage? No there isn't. GW I am sure has playtested this and made considerations. Also it makes much more business sense to concentrate on one chapter at a time, that way you can maximize sales of that particular chapter. Also it makes more hobby sense because then they can concentrate making new models for one chapter at a time. If they were all released at once and there was a three month space marines celebration, I'm sure there would be some annoyed non marine players. Also I don't think they could make as many chapter specific models as they do now.

Plus, this isn't anything new. Has GW ever made a new codex that didn't seem overpowered? It will be new but we will get over it. DAs BAs have pretty good codexes from what I understand that are unique enough. SWs and Templars are supposedly getting new codexes at some point. I am actually glad that vanilla marines will be more competitive now as I feel they are kinda weak at this stage.

These are rumors right not set in stone...when is the marine codex coming out anway?
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Steve
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Post by Steve » Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:34 am

I am not an expert having never had any type of space marine army, but I know the blood angels have some stuff that won't be in the Space Marine codex, like overcharged engines maybe? What about the Furioso dreadnought? And who said vanilla space marines can mix and match special characters from different chapters? The codex isn't out yet but I highly doubt they will allow that.
Ahaha I have left out nothing,you just haven't read the Blood angel PDF, overcharged engines are ok but they aren't all that. Furioso dreadnought - well I covered that in my post, The space marines get them now also, they are just call dreadnoughts. Plus they get Ironclad Dreadnoughts.. And who said you could mix SC's from different chapters?? GW said it, that's who, on nearly every interview they have done about the new codex. The BA codex is free to download, please tell me what else I left out? :-)

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_Cus ... dition.pdf

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Morbidangel
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Post by Morbidangel » Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:54 am

October. thats when the marines get a new codex. Also...9 out of 10 times....rumors of this detail seem to be more accurate lately than not.

I too agree...they do have some unique things that make them blood angels and dark angels.

For starters....blood angels can take assault squads as troops. That in itself is a big bonus. Also blood angels have the predator with the twin linked assault cannons and heavy flamers. Under the new rules, that is still a very viable tank, unlike the standard predator that is just now an expensive firebase. Also...blood angels will still have there b2 5 chaplains and librarians. Also blood angels have the deathcompany. Those guys are still brutal. I do hope that they make the storm shields 3+ invunerable save a marine standard, if they do that makes there assault termies very nasty in a blood angel army. Sure they don't get alot of the nice new special stuff like a techmarine character or the thudd gun, but hey..thats the disadvantage for not following the standard codex and having a deviant list.

As for the dark angels, you have deathwing. They are nice cause they can mix there termie weapons. Yeah it sucks they can't take 10 in a squad, but fluff wise they operate in units of 5. Dark angels also have the deathwing. So you don't have bike squads of 8, but you do have the ravenwing special rules. Also you get to attach a land speeder to the unit, and then take a unit of just land speeders. Also dark angels still have 3 wound chaplains, so they don't have to go with the company captains/master. To me they have the feel of a dark angel force, and again, its part of them keeping to there own, and not letting anyone in on there organization. Dark angels should have a different feel and stucture to every other marine chapter out there.

All in all, yes, there are some definite improvements of the new marine codex. Eventually the other chapters will be brought up to speed with the marine codex, yet at the same time, i can't see alot of the changes being brought to the blood angels and dark angels. I do hope they give there characters some improvements, making captains and masters better with ws. I can see blood angels chaplains and librarians as being better combat monsters than the vanilla equivalents. But when it comes down to it, both blood angels and dark angels are still very viable lists.
The vanilla marines should be the most flexible list as it covers the broader spectrum of the marine chapters. Dark angels and there successors follow what has been laid down for them from there parent chapter, blood angels the same. Space wolves, well russ, has never been prone to going with the flow of things, and the templars have developed there own organization spanning from the time of the heresy. Templars as a whole almost never group up as a chapter and thus are so wide spread and loosly organized as they should be.

Also abbadon, i only mentioned the houserules as an option. I personally don't care for house rules either. Maybe a house rule for campaigns and character development, but i haven't particiapted in a campaign in years. I go with the lists provided and wish for stuff. The only thing i have ever longed for was actual rules to field a chapter master for my diy chapters, to field a distinct character without having to take marneus. Its about time the new codex actually provides a chaptermaster as a slot, that is a bit different than a standard company captain. I also do look forward to seeing a company captain in there rightful place, as i have never really cared about fielding librarians and chaplains have been so overused, that i much rather field a captain to be different and lead my company of marines. So its good news for me. Will i use everything in the new dex, no. I already don't like bikes, and have never really used them. I also never liked assault terminators because of there inability to survive the field to get into close combat. Now they seem like an option. I wont use some things, and i will embrace other new stuff. Either way, an army isn't cheesed by simply being a book, its the players who look for the best possible ways to use the list to maximize there effectiveness while minimizing the drawbacks that makes a list cheesy. Also everyone crys cheese when a new codex comes out, because they simply haven't seen it in action, played against it yet, or figured out its weakness yet.
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Post by tyson » Wed Aug 27, 2008 12:07 pm

Steve wrote: The BA codex is free to download, please tell me what else I left out? :-)

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_Cus ... dition.pdf
Well, you forgot the part where Blood Angels are a bunch of blood drinking bad-asses with some unique models and very interesting fluff. Both you and Yuri have good points about what the new codex gives that BA and DA miss out on and I'm sure, after milking this new SM codex for everything it's worth, they will address those discrepancies. But, right now, it's not like either of your armies aren't competitive. In fact both of you guys seem to win more than you lose. Weren't the Blood Angels in the final game of the last tournament. Think of it this way: if GW didn't shock players with the benefits of the latest codex, how would they so easily entice people to switch and expand their armies. :)
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Post by Abaddon » Wed Aug 27, 2008 1:02 pm

I think Morbidangel fill in my gaps of knowledge of the blood angels/darnk angels codex and I think he made some good points.

Also agree with Tyson.
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Morbidangel
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Post by Morbidangel » Wed Aug 27, 2008 2:18 pm

hehe yeah..didn't steve get into the final game just to forfit. Also the games i have played against his blood angels were devestating. Sure i was able to shoot em up, but he still won the games. And against the dark angels, i have played them and lost against them too. The specialist armies are a bit tricky to play, but a balanced list using all of the dark angels specialties own.

Again, as i stated, no army is cheesy, its the player. I don't find eldar cheesy, sure when i play against them i get owned, but when i play as them i can't own my own jetbike. For me, its a finess army, that i can't seem to pull off. I guess my tactics don't suit the army, and i can't bend the army to form to my playstyle. Marines, they are more forgiving. I can get them to work my playstyle better. Out of all the armies i have played, some work for me, some don't. I have found that armies that favor more assaulting don't work as well for me. But thats me. Plus i don't get to play alot of games so when i do play i am so rusty you can make paint pigments from me. But i don't give up. I play thru, and try to make the most out of games.

Guess thats part of what i love about the game, they keep improving army lists, but they never improve them fast enough. Why do you think i have put my marines on the back burner. Why i started playing them without traits. I loved the old trait system, but i didn't want to get use to the way they played, i didn't want to get use to using them one way to have to go completely different. Its also part of the reason i opted out of the tournament in ATL. One i couldn't afford it, two i didn't want to get so focused on building my marines up to fit a list, that i woudl then have to scrap and rebuild and reorganize shortly there after.

If anyone should be complaining it should be the space puppies. THey are the one marine chapter that hasn't has an upgrade since 3rd edition. Yet they have the most unique marine organization structure since 2nd edition. Heck, they didn't even get any white dwarf lovin like them blood thirsty borderline khornate blood angels did.
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Steve
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Post by Steve » Wed Aug 27, 2008 3:43 pm

I think you guys are missing the point ENTIRELY! :-)

Everything I fielded in those tournaments to win all the games I won, I'll be able to field the same unites with the new Space Marine Codex and they will be even Stronger! that before, so if you think it was painful the last time you played them, just wait until I get my hand on the new Crack Marine Codex :D :shock: :D

Maybe that what I'll name my new marine army, The Crack Head Marine chapter LOL

The only way the BA will still be viable Vs the new marines is if the new stuff is way more expensive, something I just don't see happening given how expensive the BA already are.

Guess we'll wait and see.

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Post by Abaddon » Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:32 pm

Oh so you can get mephiston, the death company and corbial in th enew codex?

By the way, I'll take your blood angels on anytime with my WAAAAAAAAGHHHHHHHHHHH SKULLSQUEEZA
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Morbidangel
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Post by Morbidangel » Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:27 pm

ok steve...sure you can field the same units, just not in the same amount and way you did with blood angels.

Lets see...blood angels...i can take 6 assault squads, 3 veteran assault squads, one jump pack mounted death company, and 2 chaplains with attached honor guard with jump packs. Man that can't be fielded at all under the new marine codex. All you can field is 3 assault squads or 3 vanguard units as fast attack..not 6 total units.

If you plan on fielding tons of tactical squads with terminators and a few assault squads..then sure..go with the new standard codex. If you want that all jump pack close combat oriented army then you might want to go with blood angels.

Heck even with shrike, you can't field a ton of assault marines anymore. If they allowed vanguards to be an elite choice, than maybe fielding blood angels as vanilla marines might be the way to go.

Truth be told, i can't see how were missing the point. Yes..i can agree...some of the stuff doesn't seem like it will be going up in price..like tactical marines. But other stuff might get pricy to field stuff. I would guess that the characters wargear options might be a bit pricy in the new list, and the special characters are gonna be points intensive. I can also assume that honor guard wont be cheap either. As for vanguard and sternguard, i would think they might be a bit more expensive, well the sternguard at least. The vanguard might be just in line with veteran assault marines in the BA codex. Other than that...most of the prices might stay around the same.

But i still hold true...the valid argument of how dark angels and blood angels compare to the new marines i still stand behind. They have some faults, and they could use some upgrading, but they are still perfectly valid lists and would probably be correct in stating that they can hold there own against the new marine codex. As for templars, not so sure..they definitely can use a revamp since they weren't designed with 5th edition even as a thought or hint at things to come.
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