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Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 12:24 pm
by Rheibaen
Sorry guys, another wall of text incoming:

Morbid, I'm going to have to respectfully (emphasis here, no inflection on the internet hurts sometimes) disagree with you here. Regarding the Deceiver, there's an extremely easy counter that you're forgetting, and would be extremely easy for you to field (because I saw you use them at the first tournament): Sternguard Vets, preferably in a Rhino. The Deceiver's awesome T8 doesn't matter when you can wound it on 2+ regardless. The Rhino gives the squad the mobility to play keep away if the Deceiver gets too close (cuz that's his other weakness, he's cc infantry whose only means of getting into combat is his toughness). A 5-man squad of Sternguard with a Rhino can easily take out the Deceiver for 1/2 of the points.

Even simpler than that, Necrons as a whole have a greater weakness that *almost* everyone I play seems to forget about: Phase Out. You don't have to kill the Monolith or the Deceiver. They're slow enough that they're quite easy to keep away from, and targetting my warriors = a losing necron player.

The only point I'm trying to make is that, in addition to "playing to win" and having fun, this should also be a learning experience. There's no such thing as an unbeatable combo. If you come across a unit that your list can't beat, then fix your list for the next tournament so that it covers that weakness.

If you don't want to do that because you like the theme of your list and want to stick to it, then I think we should go all one way or the other: Either make a tournament where the list you bring doesn't dock you points at all (though Sportsmanship should be included to affect you based on how well you treat your opponent and such), or make it a "fluff" based tournament with comp score and all. I personally think that our half-way system is kinda hurting the game.

You mention the genestealer list, but the truth is that it isn't THAT awesome of a list: it's a cool one, and one that Hurricane enjoys playing, which is great. But as soon as someone hits the table with 3 land raiders or several transports that keep to the middle of the board until she outflanks, there isn't much she can do about it.

Regarding what HurricaneGirl said about fun-to-play-against armies, I think that is kinda up to both players, not just one or the other. For example, a fluffy list against a hardcore tournament list probably won't be a fun game ultimately for either side: it's pretty clear even without saying which army is which that the tournament list will win. But if both players do one or the other, that's when the games really get exciting, and that's why I think the T.O. should make a decision for us to go full-on one or the other. Perhaps even just alternating tournaments: one is just bring the best stuff you can, then the next is more fluff-based with more emphasis on the comp score.

I'd just like to emphasize one last time that I'm not trying to knock anyone's opinion here: we're all entitled to one, and that's great. I'm just trying to express mine :wink:

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 1:08 pm
by Morbidangel
nah you didn't hurt my feelings lol. it is the internet after all.
Well thats just also forget, yes i can do it, and after all i was trying to get shots at him with my sternguard. Theres that mobility factor, but at the same time, i don't build a tournament list in mind to counter one persons army, to do so is suicidal at best. Its better to build an all comers list, just so many people find a one trick pony that works and thats what everyone seems to end up taking is all.
So how would you guys feel if i take a calgar list then? Or better yet a vulkan hestan list, with minimum troop choices so i can maximized on taking land raider redeemers with thunderhammer/stormshield termies in it. Its not exactly fluffy in the least, and would probably get me low comp scores in such a small tournament. It would be alot of expensive troops.

Also you mention that our systemis half way. Well not sure what exactly you mean by that. But i will admit that i think the 1250 limit is still odd. Some lists get an advantage at those points, some lists don't. me personally found the tournament games at that level fun and educational as i have learned alot of what my army can and can't do, and also learned what i don't really care for about my army list in general. I really still enjoy the 1500+ games as they seem to more enjoyable and have never fully enjoyed smaller games of 40k, partially due to the limited nature of the smaller games. They are better for really strategizing but limit you in your options you often can take due to the way the game already puts limits on the units you have to take. In real life not every army in the modern day is going to have minimum stuff other than an army commander. They wouldn't limit you in troop choices for a battle. You wouldn't be forced to take infantry if it was better suited for your special forces to do the job, or your armored company to just come in and clear the area. But hey its just a game right.

Also i teased hurricanegirl about the all genesteeler army. That army was much more brutal in the last edition rules than it is now, now the tyranid army to cheese out is typically called the nidzilla list. Every army out there has those cheese lists. There all still cheesy just depends on how much cheese you can handle and if you bring enough wine to really counter it. :P

But i guess you guys can have your thread back. I really don't care what you guys i wont be able to play in the next tourney anyways. Also apparently my Lunar Drakes are going to be undergoing some reorganization over the next few months to get them back to there druidic nature that my intended "fluff" was for. Also i personally don't care for the sternguard right now. The ideas for them is great, but after talking to others and trying them out, and reading several forum posts on them, the stern guard have really just become more of the optional devestator unit for marines. Take a small 5-6 man unit, give em two heavy weapons and then use the extra marines in the unit for the kraken rounds for extended range, while you use heavy support slots for taking tanks.

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 1:11 pm
by Abaddon
The deceiver only moves 6 inches a turn. He's tons of points. You can avoid him. Lysander is faster than the deceiver cause you can deep strike him or throw him the rhino. Neither are cheesy. You can't compared biker nobz to the deciever... just look at all of tournaments for the last year... what armies come on top?

1. Biker Nobz
2. Seer Council
3. Dual Lash Princes

Imperial Guard are now starting to get up there with their new codex, but you NEVER see a deciever necron list or a Lysander list win any of these tournaments. I'll be more than happy to show you why Biker Nobz are REAL cheese in September.

Tournaments are meant to be competitive. There will be hard lists. The armies that win tournaments that include comp/sportsmanship scores are hard armies that are played by a good general who is fun to play against and who doesn't spam the autowin units listed above. I'm not saying they won't run a seer council, I'm just saying they run it in an fluffy Ulthwe list as they should.

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 2:14 pm
by Steve
If I play I'll probably play a basic marine army, because I really don't care. :-)

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 2:15 pm
by Abaddon
If I play I'll probably play a basic marine army, because I really don't care.
Come on who really believes that ;-)

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:59 pm
by greenlantern1
Ok, well now that we have talked about "cheese lists" vs. "fluff lists." . . . I REALLY don't care about the win column or the loss column (which is why, no disrpect intended to those who do, I don't post my wins and losses in my signature). . .what I come for is to pay $10.00 to spend 6 or 7 hours hanging with my friends. You can't buy that kind of fun that cheap anywhere ( I just wish we had beer, but I digress.) I have been playing GW since they first got into the American market and have seen armies go from "cheese" to "nobody plays us anymore" in the span of a codex (blood angels are a great example, need I say "Rhino Rush") So I say don't worry about it and just dance the dance with what one brung ya.

What I would love to see everyone at the tourney have is a goal of having a fully painted army. I don't care if its a "fluff army" or "cheese" army just have some good looking figs. I don't think or expect anyone to be golden demon painters, but a painted army is so much more fun to play against.

So, being new to the Athens Gamers how about a paint day instead of a tournament day. At other places I have played at everyone brought a unit of their armies, their paint stuff and we all sat around, shot the breeze and painted for a few hours.
It does 2 things it gives you the ability to learn new techniques and gives you incentive to keep painting. . my motto has always been if ya got time to play ya got time to paint.

OK, I am sure that I have opened another can of worms so i will bid you all arividerci.

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 7:16 pm
by Dannel
lists don't win games. good players win games. Bring the bikers.

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 8:23 pm
by Rheibaen
lists don't win games. good players win games.
QFT. This is kinda what I meant about there being no such thing as cheese: The pilot of the force determines how well it does more than which units are taken.

About what I was saying regarding our half-way system, I only meant that the Sportsmanship punishment for bringing hard lists is fairly mild, and really just a half-measure. So, I merely suggested that the T.O. might in the future want to really make the tournament go one way or the other: bring the hardest list you can or bring the fluffiest list you can.

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 8:28 pm
by Abaddon
Dude I am totally in for paint day.

Also Jon doesn't mind bringing beer to the store as long as you don't get drunk and drive or get belligerent.

Since you asked me so nicely I'll bring the bikers :-)

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:09 pm
by HurricaneGirl
I know my list is all rending. I can't help that. I LOVE stealers. LOVELOVELOVE them. I wish there was a plushie one, I'd carry it always!

The important part is my list works (mostly) and is ALL Fluffy. 'stealers are the vanguard of the hive fleets and lictors the scouts. my list basically says "we are coming".

and they're waiting in the alley for you. with rending.

*thumbs up to Mr. Green's comment about fully painted armies*

All about a paint day! or a terrain day.... *ahem*

I had a total blast at the painting contest too!!

I don't mind hardcore units in a tourney. I expect it. Those units are in the codex for a reason. If I play against necrons I plan on seeing a monolith, guard has armor, chaos has obliterators (though I will never EVER field one). I enjoy seeing creativity with these units. It's when a player gets a list off the 'net, and never ever fields anything else that bothers me.

My own aversion to fielding those combos/units comes from having actually breaking the game at one point. Accidentally. I was losing a 3 way game and I was looking at they psyker powers I had rolled for and realized I had in hand the ultraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa combooooooooooo!

So I did it. Both other players quit the game.

Temporal Distort + Change Allegiance (+ Teleport optional)

Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 1:54 am
by Yuri
Abaddon wrote:Since you asked me so nicely I'll bring the bikers :-)
*sigh* I guess I'll bring my inferior Dark Angels Bikers as well, j/k.
HurricaneGirl wrote:All about a paint day! or a terrain day.... *ahem*
Cami, I've been meaning to try and find a time to get with you about basing some of my IG mini's. I have some ideas and I need the help of someone with skill.

Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 7:42 pm
by Frustrashun
I'll be there, with a trimmed down CSM list (predominantly Death Guard and Worldeaters, as usual). I'll have my hind-quarters thrashed soundly, but at least my entire army will be painted. And painted well, for that matter.

And personally, I don't care who plays what, so long as I have fun and learn in the process.

See everyone there.

Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 9:19 am
by greenlantern1
Sorry folks, I will sadly miss this tourney. Hope to see you all at the next one!

Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 4:34 pm
by RocketWulf
I'll probably be writing a paper or two that day. Dang

Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 4:43 pm
by Abaddon
Haven't had time or $$ for bikers so I will probably show up with the eldar.