D&D 4th Edition thoughts and reactions

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CCCG
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D&D 4th Edition thoughts and reactions

Post by CCCG » Fri Jun 06, 2008 4:55 pm

Post your inner-most feelings revolving around 4th edition here.

As for me, after having played only a few games, I do have some initial reactions.

Pros:

1: It's great that all of the classes have more things to do at lower levels. All of the players in our group seem to have multiple options each round, which for first level characters is pretty good.

2: The monsters seem to have more to do than be punching bags. Suddenly Kobolds are semi-interesting.

Cons:

1: I reserve the right to change my mind, but I'm getting the impression that I don't like the system of Marking opponents. I think it's going to be more of a pain than anything else, and it doesn't really make any logical sense.

2: It makes no sense that the Rogue is the damage dealing class (at least at first level). They are already a class that will be more active than fighters in non-fight role-playing situations. I see no reason why they should also be the most effective in the fight. I find it baffling.


More to come with further playing!
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Post by zerotkatama » Fri Jun 06, 2008 9:04 pm

Any chance there's an opening in that there group, CCCG? :wink: I love the new rules and am looking for a group.

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Post by CCCG » Sat Jun 07, 2008 8:56 am

zerotkatama wrote:Any chance there's an opening in that there group, CCCG? :wink: I love the new rules and am looking for a group.
I'm sorry zerotkatama, but my group is currently full. You can post a note at Classic City Comics & Games, and Tyches stating that you are looking for a group. Also, periodically on these boards people are looking for players.
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Post by opieself » Mon Jun 09, 2008 9:07 am

Have to agree with cccg overall, ill discuss both the rouge and the marks and my opinions there in at the bottom.

Pros

1: Movement is not just allowed it is encouraged and in some cases forced which make the fights much more interesting.

2: Each Class has its nitch that it excels while still being able to generate damage in the fight.

3: Even though our group is still learning the ropes the fights seem to go faster, and include more wow cool moments rather than just wow that was a lot of damage moments.

Cons

1: Of the three archetypes Tanks seem least effective (we are at first level they may just be late bloomers)

2: AoE spells take about the same amount of rolling as they used too which was supposed to be resolved





ok Now as far as rogues and marks go

Marks feel arbitrary and fall in with my thoughts on tanks, they add a weird thing to be tracked and as of yet dont seem to have any real impact on the game.

Rogues had to fall into one of the three archetypes Striker, Tank, Support (Wizards is called a "controller" making it a fourth though I have yet to see why) So basically it fit best into striker, I do find it odd that they so completely front loaded the sneak attack damage, and our groups lack of any other strikers makes the Rogues damage output seem extremely disproportionate



These are just my thoughts, we have only played a few games, so hopefully some of the issues will Iron out. And overall the system seems better than 3.xe
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Post by kbm99 » Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:09 pm

opieself wrote:
ok Now as far as rogues and marks go

Marks feel arbitrary and fall in with my thoughts on tanks, they add a weird thing to be tracked and as of yet dont seem to have any real impact on the game.
This is probably because, up to this point, the two players with Defender characters in our game are not really using their Marks. As everyone gains a better understanding of what Marks represent and how best to exploit them I think they will have more impact.

I have no idea why they seem more "arbitrary" than, say, Sneak Attack. The whole idea is that the fighter or paladin applying the mark is essentially saying "I am the biggest threat here. Ignore me at your peril."
opieself wrote:I do find it odd that they so completely front loaded the sneak attack damage, and our groups lack of any other strikers makes the Rogues damage output seem extremely disproportionate
opieself wrote:
Both of the other Striker classes we have access to, the Ranger and Warlock, have a mechanic similar to Sneak Attack that they can use to boost their damage output. Unlike the Rogue, the Hunter's Quarry/Warlock's Curse abilities do not require combat advantage to work, which makes them slightly less situational than Sneak Attack, though they add less damage.

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Post by opieself » Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:59 pm

I completely agree that we haven't seen marks come into full use. Both due us not being that familiar with the system and because we are 1st lvl. I guess my problem with marked is the awkward verbiage IMO. I still haven't gotten a chance to sent down and read cover to cover the PHB so that may change.

Rogue front loading comes from looking at powers between the ranger vs, the Rogue I just felt the rouge got a lot of power at first lv and then doesn't get another major boost till 11th, mostly due to power choices. Ranger conversely seemed to get a more even distribution of power increases through powers. I haven't studied the Warlock as closely to say one way or another on its capabilities.

AS we play obviously our opinions are going to change, as is I really feel the game is really good, and what issues I have seen will likely iron out as I get used to the system.



Oh and wanted to add a few more pluses

1. Races are much more separated mechanically than they used to be and non humans actually are good enough to overcome the lack of the bonus feat

2. Multi Classing is much cleaner and less likely to create weird uber combos

3. Minions are awesome, gnomes are not. :x stupid gnome

4. Still the biggest is that every character has some kind of cool action to take in every round besides swinging a weapon
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Post by CCCG » Mon Jun 09, 2008 2:58 pm

The issue that I see with Marking isn't a question of whether they are effective or not. It's a question of kind of throwing a stumbling block in the way of a smooth running combat. When we get to the point where multiple people on our side are marking certain opponents, and then the various bad guys are marking specific ones in our party, it just seems like it's going to be a pain from round to round keeping track of who marked who, what each person's mark means, and so on. I know that we can put stickers on the minis to keep track of all this, but it does seem like it has the possibility of being an unnecessarily burdensome system, which just seems to have popped up out of the blue from a D&D gameplay standpoint.

More playing could totally prove me wrong in this opinion.
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Post by magicalme » Mon Jun 09, 2008 7:06 pm

I think i'm going to be playing a fighter and i have a explanation for marks. If you have ever watched Zoro you know he puts his mark on enemies in the form of a big Z, it works a lot like that in DnD in my head. The enemies are so pissed off at your character thats who they would rather hit.

To do marks i would get a hole puncher and some construction paper, then cut out some different colors, that bit is a little annoying but its worth it to keep tanks from being ignored like in 3.5

I didn't get the dungeon master's guide so i still have a question on multi classing. Can you take a full level in another class or are those multi classing feats the only way to "dip a toe in" the other classes?

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Post by opieself » Tue Jun 10, 2008 8:17 am

The concept of the mark I understand, Just mechanically their are some issues but once again I'm guessing most of that will go away in playing. I think mechanicals the most difficult thing will be tracking it, since several characters can throw marks out.

And that is correct on multi-classing the feats enable you to take powers only allowed to that class, because of the linear progression of saves, BAB, and skills across all class' it cleaned the system up.
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Post by kbm99 » Tue Jun 10, 2008 8:33 am

magicalme wrote: I didn't get the dungeon master's guide so i still have a question on multi classing. Can you take a full level in another class or are those multi classing feats the only way to "dip a toe in" the other classes?
The 3.0/3.5 "toe dip" attracted too many goddamn piranha. It's gone.

To multiclass now you take a series of feats, and at 11th level you have the options of multiclassing instead of choosing a paragon path. The feats let you swap out a few class powers with the class you multi into; the multiclass option at 11th takes it even further. You don't need the DMG, the full rules are on page 208-209 of the PHB.

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Post by magicalme » Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:10 pm

i read those page pretty carefully but it never specifcially stated i could not take a full level in those classes, maby it left that ambigous on purpose so it would be up to the DM?

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Post by opieself » Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:29 pm

I dont have a book in front of me, but I believe they never give you choice to multi class in the 3.x way. The design team said that system was flawed, and chose to go with the new feat based system to streamline it. If a DM wants to let you obviously nothing will stop them it is their game after all. But the rules are written for you to be a fighter 1-30 that over time either focuses more on specific fighter things or spreads his knowledge to be others items. But will still be a fighter.
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Post by opieself » Wed Jun 11, 2008 8:14 am

Well after what can only be described as the most epic first level battle ever, I definitely feel like we got the chance to shake out some of the rule wrinkles.

Marks:

Now that we have a system in place to track them they definitely worked better, though remembering to utilize them, and their associated abilities is not quite as simple.

Movement:

Out of this world the difference between 3.x and 4e. Round to round I don't think anyone wasn't moving at least a little, and the fight with the BBEG was constantly shifting and changing.

Character Balance:

I still feel the fighter is a little weak right now of course any character that rolls that poorly would be, but I think every party was able to contribute a great deal to the fight.


Overall I have to say the new system is much fast more enjoyable and god forbid...fun
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Post by kbm99 » Wed Jun 11, 2008 8:53 am

magicalme wrote:i read those page pretty carefully but it never specifcially stated i could not take a full level in those classes, maby it left that ambigous on purpose so it would be up to the DM?
It's not ambiguous at all. Read the section about leveling up your character and you will find that there is not an option to take a "full level" in anything other than whatever class you already are.

It's probably a bad idea to assume that anything in 4th Edition works the same way it did in 3rd, the games are just too different.

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Post by kbm99 » Wed Jun 11, 2008 8:55 am

opieself wrote: I still feel the fighter is a little weak right now of course any character that rolls that poorly would be, but I think every party was able to contribute a great deal to the fight.
The pre-gen fighter actually has about the same chance to hit as the rogue or paladin does (+6 as opposed to +7 I think.) David's consistent inability to roll higher than a 9 or so is the chief culprit there. No amount of maneuvering for position and so forth will save you if the dice are not on your side.

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